Former Pakistan president and the architect of the Kargil war, General Pervez Musharraf, has warned India that Islamabad will strike at "a time and place of its choosing" if New Delhi resorted to any military retaliation to the Uri attack. This is the full transcript of the interview.
Zakka: The Uri attack is the worst in a decade and the Pakistan Authorities has nto even condemned the attacks...instead said that India is jumping to conclusions...Will you as a former Pakistani Head of State even condemn the attack?
Pervez Musharraf: The issues in Kashmir are not that simple...The people of Kashmir are involved and it is a UN resolution which demands a plebiscite & the right ofself-determination...so it is a more complicated issue than simply an attack which has to be condemned...
Zakka: What has the Uri attack got to do with what is happening in Kashmir?
Pervez: It is located in Kashmir....Anything that happens in Kashmir has a connotation on the freedom struggle....
Zakka: But the Government of India is clear that there were Pakistanis who fermented the attacks...and crossed the LOC and attacked the Brigade headquarters...
Pervez: Unfortunately our experience in Pakistan is always this that whenever there is an attack in Kashmir...the 1st reaction from the PM to everyone is that Pakistan did it...Pak govt is involved, Pak military is involved....without investiating they declare this position..
Zakka: The evidence found at the attack site says otehrwise...The I com site recovered is something that only the Pak army uses...
Pervez: You can get any ammunition, any kind of weapon or equipment from any prt of the world...everyone...the taliban are carrying the same....the al -Qaeda are carrying the same...
Zakka: Even ammunitions that have Pakistan ordinance factory markings on them can be procured by anyone?
Pervez: any weapon with any marking can be procured in the world...these are not credible evidence to say that these people came from Pak....the Indian govt is trying to say as if the Pak army and the Pak govt is involved...
Zakka: The DGMO has said that Jaish-e-Mohammad was involved...Do you buy that sir?
Pervez: I don't know the basis of him saying this within hours of the attack....and in any case the statements were offensive which the DGMO gave...
Zakka: You are aware of the JAish-e-Mohammad...When you were President, you shut down the Jaish-e-Mohammad...
Pervez: Well, I don't think they are active here in Pak...they are not at all active...But whenever something happens they credit or discredit them...
Zakka: The Pathankot attack was attributed by Jaish-e-Mohammad, the Uri attack is also attributed by Jaish-e-Mohmmad...saying that they are not active is not accurate Sir...
Pervez: The Pathankot attack was attributed to Lahskar-e-Taiba...and then JeM...then our team went there...they returned totally disappointed as they had no clue for anything...it was said that the Indian army managed and staged something like that...
Zakka: Why would the Indian army manage something like that? The JIT was allowed in India on the basis of reciprocity....there was an understanding that an Indian team would visit Pak...a word which Pak did not keep its promise...
Pervez: I don't know what was the agreement but I know the Pakistan team went...and they returned disappointed as they were not allowed to investigate properly...and they said it was all state managed..
Zakka: They were given access to airbase they were given access to NIA...but let's focus on the URI attacks....Do you feel that your country Pak is being isolated globally even as the UNGA is beginning...I can name any country who is strongly condemning the attack
Pervez: Well...they maybe condemning the attacks but it is not a case of isolation...this is a world issue that an attack has been condemed....
Zakka: A lot of countries are saying that if the attacks have come from some other country then the onus is on that country....isn't that alluding to Pakistan...
Pervez: Do you know what the Pakistan army is doing? They are trying to curb terrorism across Pakistan....and extremism in all its forms...and we are trying our best from the Pak front....
Zakka: But are they acting with the same vigour on the eastern front as much as on the western side?? Are they cracking down on LeT or the JeM?
Pervez: These are organisations and Pak govt has a stand on them....JeM is a banned organisation even now....LeT is not....However Pak govt is taking actions as required in accordance with their domestic requirement....
Zakka: Massod Azhar and Hafiz Saeed are roaming free on the streets of Lahore....
Pervez: I don't know about that/....Did you go to Lahore and see him there?
Zakka: There were videos of them roaming freely...after Burhan Wani killing.... having massive prayer service in lahore. Mood in india is to have a military retaliation for what happened in Uri
Pervez: Person whoz talking about military action should undertsand the consequences. DGMO should learn that you have to war game the issue to the end. If you think that you can strike at time and place of your chossing then we can strike back at our time and place of choosing. So dont stop at your action only and waht will follow should also be considered
Zakka: Do you think the provocation came from Pakistan ?
Pervez: It dint come from Pakistan. It came from some individuals. And you know your army has killed 80 civillians in Kashmir.
Zakka: who are these people ? are they non state actors
Pervez: India and Indian army would be very naive not to think that kashmir people will not react if you kill 80 of their people. You fire shotguns at them. You blinding young people and young boys and you expect that their will be no reaction.
Zakka: But the reaction has come from pakistani terrorists. Who are these people. Are they the same non state actors?
Pervez: I cant hear i haven't completed my answer. I was saying that when you do all that in Kashmir, then you must expect response. And it has a effect in Pakistan because pakistanis have sympathy towards them. So it has a response. So what can we do about it. An your army is to be blamed for creating a response in that manner...
Zakka: Who are these people who attacked Uri. The Indian army believes that they were Pakistani nationals. The weaponry recovered was made in Pakistan, Ammo is from Pak, communication equipment recovered is used only by the Pakistan army.
Pervez: If you see taliban and al-qaida, they use weapons made in america. So should we say that Obama is responsible for recruiting them. Weapons are available, their is a proliferation of weapons with evryone from Africa to anywhere.
Zakka: What about the series of attacks that have happened in the recent past? We have had Pathankot, Udhampur, Gurudaspur...why is there sudedenly a step up of attacks from Pakistan...Is the Pakistan army getting desperate?
Pervez: If you do not get into the cause of the issue, which is the KAshmir issue....When you killed 80 people and maimed thousands of them this is likely to happen...
Zakka: But I am not asking about Uri, I am asking about Pathankot....Udhampur...Gurudaspur....What has that got to do with Kashmir?
Pervez: Again...you should find out who they are....
Zakka: The government of India says the Jaish-e-Mohammad is responsible for that...
Pervez: Well, if you let JIT go to all those sites and investigate, I am sure the Pakistan govt will take action if they are to be blamed...
Zakka: General you cracked down on the JeM...How is it that the Jaish si still active? How are they still running terror camps?
Pervez: I don't think they are running any terror camps...Pakistan govt has to answer on that...I do not know the reality....
Zakka: Why did you shut them down when you were the President?
Pervez: I know they were responsible for terrorism within Pakistan...and they were responsible for attacking me also...
Zakka: And they were responsible for attacking India as well...and they were running terror camps as well..
Pervez: I really don't know if they were responsible for attacking India....I have no proof....It is what you say...
Zakka: What si going on in Pakistan Sir? IS NAwaz SHarif in control of the situations in Pakistan? The general perception here in India is that the general is running the show...General Raheel Sharif...
Pervez: Well, I wouldn't like to comment....that is Pakistan's matter...I think the PM is in office....Sharif is the PM and Raheel Sharif is the chief of army in Pakistan....
Zakka: He is in office....but is he in control?
Pervez: I am sure he is....
Zakka: There is a general perception in India that there is a step up in attacks is because Raheel Sharif's retirement is due......Would you support an extension for it?
Pervez: Again an internal matter....I have already said that I support hsi extension...
Segment 2:
Zakka: The governor of India has decided to grant political asylum to the Baloch leaders including Bugti....What are your thoughts on that?
Pervez: Thank you for raising this issue....You call on non-state actors operating in Kashmir....here in Balochistan it is the state actors....from yoru side it is your state which is acting in Balochistan which is more serious...We do not talk about what you are doing to Pakistan, we only speak of what Pakistan is doing to India...This is why I totally condemn it...he should not be given any asylum...He is a terrorirst...You cannot demand that your terrorrists are our terrorrsits but our terrorrrists are not your terrorists...
Zakka: Are you worried after Narendra Modi's speech on Balochistan? Is Pakistan worried that Baloch issue will become an international one?
Pervez: We are not worried....We know India is doing a lot to internationalise this issue...Specially in US Congress...it is all Indian mechanisation....It makes relationship between India and Pakistan alll the more tense...
Zakka: Other than China and a handful of OIC countries, which other countries are standing by Pakistan?
Pervez: No comments...This is the government's responsibility....We ahve some difficulties...But Pakistan is not a small country...Pakistan is a country with 200 billion people....it should not disturb us...Up and downs are always there...
Zakka: Do you believe as far as diplomatic relations are concerned , Pakistan is in a bad place today than they were when you were president?
Pervez: Yes when I was the President we were very well off....internationally, regionally.... we were recognised and domestically we were doing very well...
Zakka: And is that because of teh terrorism issue? IS it because the world is saying that much of terrorism inflicting South Asia is coming from Pakistan?
Pervez: I convince the world and the major players that Pakistan is the victim...Mnay things that is happening in Pakistan is because of India...We had conveyed that....We have spoken about Kashmir and conveyed to the world that KAhsmir issue needs to be resolved...if India-Pakistan tension is to be eased out...
Zakka: What about now? You have strained ties with the US, the Afghanistan, Bangladesh, why is that? Is that because of the terrorism issue?
Pervez: That is because of your mechanisation...in Bangladesh, and in Afghanistan it is Indian mechanisation...because of which all that environment has been created...
Zakka: What about the terror attacks in Kabul? Or the one happened in dhaka?
Pervez: I don't know about it....You ought to know it better because you contacted them...Your voice is very very active there...You ought to be knowing who is doing all that....And of course you should understand that in Afghanistan there is an open war going on...between Taliban and the govt forces...
Zakka: If India and Pakistan were to go on war, whoe responibility is it?
Pervez: If we go to war under the present circumstances, where you have taken such an aggressive stance, India will be responsible ...it depends on how it goes....I mean today your DGMO Defence Minister is clearly saying that 'we are going to attack you' in whichever time and place of our choosing...not war gaming a step further...what will happen after that? why wouldn't Pakistan strike back at its time and place of choosing...and that is how things get escalated.....and go in to war....
Zakka: But the Pakistan Defence Minister has also been saying things which you wouldn't normally associate with somebody holding such a high stature...talking about nuclear weapons...that is not something talked about publicly...
Pervez: I don't know what he said about the nuclear aspect, but obviously it agitates anywhere in Pakistan, let India understand and let your leadership understand...Please don't treat Pakistan like they are a nobody...We are not a small little country...We are huge country of 200 million people.,..and we are a nuclear power...and a missile power...And we have got a huge military....So don't treat us as any country treats another small country....to just come and take action and teach us a lesson....you can't teach us a lesson...we will teach you a lesson....
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