Exclusive | Our People Know, Admire World's Largest Democracy India Defying All Threats: Taiwan FM

China?s growing authoritarianism and its expanding ties with Russia are being viewed warily by many countries, in particular India and Taiwan. In an exclusive interview with CNN-News18, Taiwan?s foreign minister J Joseph Wu spoke extensively on the China challenge, Ukraine crisis, Quad, value of democracy, and relationship with India. Edited excerpts:

How do you see the recent increase in this expansionist adventurism by Xi Jinping?s CCP, PLA into Taiwan airspace? Is this a build-up to a full-blown confrontation in the near future?

This is a situation where we are watching very carefully and also watching very closely how much more China is going to do against Taiwan. The military threat against Taiwan is one thing that we need to prepare for. If you look at the Chinese military activities, other than what is described of the Chinese air force encroachment into our air defence identification zone?They also have come into borders close to Taiwan. Other than that, they also have their grey zone activities and also infiltration, misinformation campaigns which we describe as a high-grade threat against Taiwan. All these are being intensified. If you look at the encroachment of their air force into our ADIZ (air defence identification zone). There were close to 1,000 instances last year. So we can see that it is a very serious situation to deal with. Therefore, in these matters, internally, we try to beef up our defence capabilities. We invest more in our defence and especially in asymmetric warfare. We want to let China understand that if they want to launch a war against Taiwan, they have to pay a very dear price. Secondly, we also want to speak more to the international partners and make sure they understand that if China launches a war against Taiwan, it?s not only going to be a disaster in this area, it?s going to affect the rest of the world. Because of our efforts and the efforts of some of our very close friends, there are more and more voices in the international community that express concern about sensitiveness. If you look at the summit between India and Japan or between the United States and Japan or between the United States and EU, they all express concern over the sensitiveness. This is the situation that we want to let the international community understand. The supporting point is not Taiwan itself but also to support the value of freedom, democracy and human rights but at the same time also safeguard the international supply chain.

You talked about safeguarding democracies. Is there a tussle between democracies and autocracies? The CCP/PLA is trying autocratic setups whereas India, US, Taiwan and other nations like Japan, Australia are championing democracy?

This is a very important issue for the federal democracies to look at. There?s a report which came out this morning which is done by the Economist. It?s called the Economic Intelligence Information and it ranked Taiwan as one of the top democracies in the world. At the same time, it also looked at China as a challenge. The title of the report was ?The China Challenge? and therefore you can tell very easily that democracy needs to safeguard itself to prevent the outward expansion of authoritarianism or autocracy. And if you look at Chinese challenges not just to Taiwan but to the rest of the world, they not only want to expand them inwards, they also want to expand the authoritarianism or the authoritarian culture in other countries. They want to destabilise other democracies through misinformation campaigns and hybrid warfare. So this is the situation that we all need to pay very close attention to. It?s not just Taiwan?s issue. Japan faces the same issue. Our friend Australia is also facing the same issue, and I?m sure India is also facing the same issue. Now our very good friends the United States and the European countries are also waking up to the situation that Chinese authoritarianism is trying to expand itself and trying to dominate the rest of the world and this is the situation that we all have to wake up to. The only key for us to manage the situation is for the democracies to unite and work together to defeat authoritarianism. There?s no other way for them to work together and in that regard, I would like to commend India for participating in the Quad for the biggest democracies in the Indo-Pacific to work together with each other to strengthen our abilities, to build possible encroachment of authoritarianism.

Coming to the Quad question, there is a Quad foreign ministers? meeting that took place today. How does Taiwan view the Quad? Is this a step towards redefining multilateralism in the region and should Quad acquire a military dimension too?

The Quad is not having a military dimension so far but I think it is very important for the federal democracies especially the biggest democracies in the Indo-Pacific to work with each other and to meet the common challenges that we face in the Indo-Pacific region. These challenges would include the pandemic, the supply chain, infrastructure, etc, and I?m very happy to see that India along with Japan, the United States and Australia are working together to provide a better safeguard to the rest of the Indo-Pacific region. I?m very happy to see the coordination among the Quad nations in working closer and closer with each other. Right now, the foreign ministries of Quad are meeting in Australia. We are also seeing that the leaders of the Quad nations are meeting from time to time. There are already two summits and I?m sure there will be more and I?m sure their meetings will yield positive results for all these countries to work with each other. But nevertheless, we think that the security challenge is also a common challenge for all the Quad states. For example, the United States is busy dealing with the European situation and they are also paying very close attention to authoritarian expansionism in the Indo-Pacific. Japan is facing confrontation or the expansion of China?s force in the East China Sea. Australia is also waking up to this situation. Not to forget about the border clashes between India and China. Therefore, the security dimension is something that I hope the Quad nations can include in the discussion so that we can face the common challenges.

Taiwan seems to have the ability to read between the lines of what Xi Jinping or the CCP, PLA say or do. Does making a PLA soldier, who was in Galwan recently, a flag bearer at the Winter Olympics imply that China is shedding its soft propaganda? Will the Xi-led CCP in the coming days be increasingly muscular?

That is an issue we have to deal with day in and day out. China is not only flexing its military muscles, it is also trying to use its economic clout to dominate other countries. Very often we would describe the Chinese trait with other countries as the Nazi trait to bring other countries down. For example, China has sanctioned Australia and they also tried to sanction Taiwan economically. This puts us under very serious pressure and the Chinese political conditions for trade or economic relations is very obvious and so this is something that we have to deal with and China is also using its economic or cultural or other types of influence to force other countries to follow its conditions. What you just said about the Winter Olympics, it?s not just Taiwan facing a challenge, our good friend Korea is also facing a serious challenge at this moment as well and I think other countries are also facing similar challenges. The Winter Olympics is the time for China to show glory not just to the Chinese people but also to the rest of the world. Through that China might be able to gain more influence. So this is the thing that we need to pay very close attention to and it is related to what I just said a little earlier: it?s about hybrid warfare. China is engaging with the rest of the world. They use their influence to penetrate into our democracies and they try to buy their influence in the democracies so that they can influence policymaking. So these are the things we need to watch out for. Soft authoritarianism is something we need to watch out for.

How does Taiwan view the escalation of tensions between the US and Russia with respect to Ukraine? Does that imply Russia may just once again get closer to China because we?ve seen that in the past? How do you view this situation and its implications on Taiwan and also the region?

There are several dimensions to this very important issue. We do see the tensions rising in East Europe and in Eastern Europe, Russians seem to be assembling their troops along the border of Ukraine and we are not sure at this moment yet whether Russia is ready to launch a war against Ukraine but they seem to have that ability too. I think the United States is working hard with the European countries and also other democracies to make sure that when Russia decides to launch a war against Ukraine, the rest of the democracies will stand up to Russia by imposing very heavy economic sanctions on Russia. So this is a situation we are seeing. So far the United States and the other major European countries are saying that they may not be directly in the war if Russia launches an attack against Ukraine. But at the same time, this goes into another dimension as the confrontation between authoritarianism in China and also the democracies in the Indo-Pacific especially for Taiwan, we are watching very carefully whether China is going to learn a lesson in the conflict in Eastern Europe or whether China is going to take advantage when the democracies are busy dealing with conflict in Eastern Europe and take that advantage to launch an attack against Taiwan. So these are some things that we are watching very carefully. We think that China may have the intention to launch a war against Taiwan. The matter is timing. For example, China is having its Winter Olympics at this moment so they may not want to have any major events that divert the attention to the glory of the Winter Olympics. So we may have a window of peaceful time in this part of the world or in Eastern Europe. It?s gonna be very hard to say that after the Winter Olympics is over, whether Russia is going to launch an attack against Ukraine or whether China is going to think about using its military force against Taiwan. But at any rate, any kind of aggression or coercion, threat or military attack against any sovereign country cannot be tolerated. It should not be accepted whether it?s Russians against Ukraine or China against Taiwan. I think we need to respect the sovereignty, the territorial integrity of every major country in the world or any country that has a conflict with others and that is what we are asking for. We want the rest of the world to understand that Taiwan is situated separately from China and we are governing ourselves and we are one of the top democracies in the world. This is something that we hope that the rest of the world, especially the democratic world, can understand. At the same time, if there?s going to be any conflict in eastern Europe, I certainly hope that the federal democracies can unite together with the United States or the European Countries to impose a very heavy cost on Russia. At the same time, if China is going to attack Taiwan, the democracies should also unite together to impose a very heavy cost on China. But I would tell you that fortunately, we have seen that the federal democracies are great at waking up to the threat posed by China and they are speaking up. We really appreciate the federal democracies showing support for Taiwan.

Should the one-China policy be abandoned? Should China be exposed globally for the way it is persecuting ethnic minorities? What it has done with Inner Mongolia, Hong Kong; what it?s doing with Taiwan; what it?s doing with Tibet and, of course, east Turkestan.

Let me comment on the minority issue first. Whether the nation is a minority or not, whether they are ethnic minority or religious minority, in our standard, they should be respected. They should be respected as distinct. Therefore, people in Xinjiang have their own religion. They have their own ethnic identity and that is something in normal democracies, respecting them is our core value. When we see what China is doing to Xinjiang and it?s doing to Tibet, it?s doing to Hong Kong, it?s not something that we can really tolerate. When we see atrocities in Xinjiang we described them as genocide or crime against humanity. When China did that to Hong Kong by imposing a national security law in Hong Kong and taking away every piece of freedom the Hong Kong people used to enjoy. We are not quiet. We continue to speak out in support of the Hong Kong people who deserve freedom just as the Taiwanese people. Therefore, the Chinese government imposing restrictions or using extremist measures to control the minorities, either an ethnic minority or religious minority, is something that cannot be accepted by federal democracies and I or the Government or the Taiwanese people will continue to speak out about these issues especially Hong Kong. When the Chinese took over Hong Kong in 1997, they promised Hong Kong a high degree of autonomy for 50 years at least and they would allow Hong Kong to enjoy their freedom and their way of governance for at least 50 years. And they want to use that one country two systems model to showcase to the Taiwanese people for future unification with Taiwan. But if you look at what they are doing to Hong Kong these days, nobody in Taiwan is going to believe that the Chinese promised the one country two systems model. It?s going to be realised if therefore Taiwanese people, Taiwanese government continue to speak out against the Chinese way of dealing with Xinjiang, Tibet or Hong Kong or even other religious minorities in China. On the issue of the Chinese regard to the status of Taiwan, I know there are many countries that have adhered to one-China policy, but in most of the countries, their one-China policy is restrictively different from what the Chinese claim of the one-China principle. When the Chinese govt says they have the one-china principle and they want other governments to help the one-china principle as well when they say that they mean that Taiwan is part of the PRC. But I think the federal democracies now understand that Taiwan exists independent of China and they are working together with Taiwan on that basis and they recognise that the status quo is something that needs to be protected in order to safeguard the peace sensibility. For the matter of the one-China principle, you need to look at the reality on the ground here in Taiwan. Taiwan is not under China?s jurisdiction. The people of the Republic of China and Taiwan have no mutual jurisdiction over each other. In Taiwan, we have a democracy. The president is democratically elected. We also have a parliament that is democratically elected even though our parliament may not be as popular as the executive branch in Taiwan but they are still popularly elected. They are a symbol of Taiwan?s democracy and we also have a free press and people just love the democratic way of life here. We also have a ministry of foreign affairs. We issue visas, passports here and engage with other governments. We also have the military to defend ourselves. In Taiwan, we have a new Taiwan model which is not the same as the CCP. Therefore, if you look at the reality, Taiwan is not the same as China or any part of the PRC. So this is the reality and I think the international community is gradually coming to the realisation that the status quo serves the best interest of all parties concerned including India. Therefore, the status quo that China and Taiwan are peacefully separated is something that needs to be protected.

On that note, how do you view the Taiwan-India partnership? Has New Delhi been more receptive under Prime Minister Narendra Modi?

Yes, and we are very happy that Taiwan and India are working more and more with each other. For instance, there are more Taiwanese investments going to India which are mutually beneficial and the Taiwanese people are gradually getting aware that the Indian culture or the Indian democracy or the Indian national strength in dealing with threats coming from the North is something that needs to be admired. The Indian government is also becoming more friendly to Taiwan especially the Indian Media and Indian people and have shown support to the Taiwanese people. Whenever I tweet on India, there are always a lot of likes on my tweet and therefore you can see the affinity of Indian people to Taiwan. This is a very good basis to build a long-term govt to govt or country to country relations. Other than that, very basic cooperation or natural affinity between the two peoples. There are also many areas for us to work with each other. For example, in the area of agriculture, fighting against pandemic or medical cooperation, education cooperation, etc. In the last few years, we saw a steady increase in these kinds of cooperations and that is very good. We also have an investment agreement with India and that is something we really treasure and we want to keep them as a basis to continue to expand the trade between Taiwan and India. For many people here in Taiwan, all they know about India is that it is a democracy and the biggest democracy in the world and it is standing up to any threat against India and that is something we really admire. Because of that, we want to continue to improve our relations with India.

If you could just elaborate on trade, and also Taiwan has expertise in hardware engineering and chip manufacturing. India has a huge human resource pool or a demographic dividend but there is a gap as far as skilling is concerned. Do you think that there can be a partnership here? The govt is also inviting manufacturers and investments here under the PLI scheme but also saying in education it?s impossible to collaborate. Are there discussions on that?

Absolutely. This is one area that we are looking at very closely. The education cooperation between Taiwan and India is one of the top priorities for this govt in thinking about the future relations between Taiwan and India and you are absolutely right that Taiwan is very good in hardware production and India very smart people are engaged in software designs and therefore we are natural partners. We have been thinking about how we can work closely with each other and we are setting up Taiwan education centres in India. Now we have 24 of them and our Taiwan education centres are different from computer institutes. The computer institute is very easy in dealing with propaganda or influence operations but we don?t do that. We only want to engage in cultural operations and the Chinese language so that more and more Indian students can understand Taiwan and want to have exchanges with Taiwan. We have also opened up some scholarship programmes with Indian students to study in Taiwan and they may want to study in Taiwan in the area of 5g, semiconductors or telecommunication, etc, so that when they are graduated from our higher institutions, they will be ready to work either in India or in Taiwan for the high tech companies. So far, we have around 2500 Indian students studying in Taiwan in higher education and among them, there are about 1000 Indian students in PhD studies in Taiwan. This is a good number and we hope we can continue to increase these numbers so that personal exchanges or higher education can help in Indian economic production. We also set up a semiconductors academy in Taiwan and the government here has already been discussing incorporating the Indian talents to study in Taiwan?s semiconductor academy so that they can become a very useful stage for India to develop its semiconductor industry. So what we have been thinking is that Taiwan is very advanced in semiconductors or telecommunication, etc, and there?s a natural bond between Taiwan and India and we have been working very hard in that regard already. We hope we can continue to speak with the Indian authorities to make sure that this kind of cooperation will continue.

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